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ending, is it true? discussion time. (spoilers)

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BigJon1448

Jun 20, 2012 11:02 am GMT
Herrix posted...
No, YOU'RE forgetting one very important thing. He is talking about THIS game, not a future title. The article even explicitly tells the reader so. How is "We don't want to cheat the experience" some magical code to indicate that he's alive? It simply means he didn't want to reveal the ending to Arkham City prematurely the last time he spoke to Kotaku. Any other interpretation is just wishful thinking on your part.

Here is another interview, though I'm sure you'll just misconstrue this as well and come away with the opposite meaning that was intended:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/335174/interviews/the-ending-was-almost-taboo-rocksteady-looks-back-on-arkham-city/?page=2#top_banner
So by your thinking, Rocksteady is appreciative of DC so graciously allowing the developer to NOT kill their character and Harley Quinn wants revenge in the DLC for the Joker NOT dying. And WE need to use OUR brains? Just use your eyes. It's a process known as "reading" and it is also not hard.

I read that interview before it was posted here. Just because you want Joker dead doesn't mean he's dead, man. You can get mad all you want.

I am a huge Joker fan and I don't care if he's really dead or not (due in part to how spectacular it happened), but I've heard too many devs claim exactly this only to have it not be true. All I'm saying is nothing is always as it seems.

Especially in a comic book video game.
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JimiMorrison187

Jun 20, 2012 12:59 pm GMT
Magic will always revive the Joker. No reason to think otherwise.
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Gonna be awesome: http://playstarbound.com/
Herrix

Jun 20, 2012 1:01 pm GMT
@BigJon1448

Who's getting mad? You're the one who started in with a dickish attitude telling people who didn't agree with you to "use your brains," and suddenly I'm the one out of line? Give me a break. "Just because [I] want Joker dead" is not why I think Joker is dead, as I very clearly showed. The developer said it directly. "The Joker's dead." He talks in another interview about killing the character off for reasons other than shock value. There's no room for interpretation there. He knows the fate of the game's characters better than both you and I. Argue with me all you want, but you're going to dispute the point against the developer of the series then you're going to lose.

The Lego games prove that even dismemberment can be cute.
banzaiheil

Jun 20, 2012 5:39 pm GMT
Honestly I don't care if there are a million quotes of the dev saying "he's dead and will never return." If WB decides that there's more money in Joker being there than not, then Joker will be there. Other than that, I dunno, and don't really care. I wouldn't mind a cameo appearance, even if it's just a FEW pre-recorded scenes from before his death.
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RAMMSTEIN -Atlanta, GA 04/23/2012
Soooooooo good!
Catalyst_black

Jun 20, 2012 5:47 pm GMT
I don't think anyone's saying that the Joker being dead means he won't be back. But TC sorta specifically asked whether the Joker was dead in this game. And in my opinion he definitely is. Rocksteady seems to be in agreement as well. Now that in no ways means he won't be back. Alotta characters have truly and utterly dead only to come back to life via cloning, super healing, or just plain magic.
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Herrix

Jun 20, 2012 8:36 pm GMT
banzaiheil posted...
Honestly I don't care if there are a million quotes of the dev saying "he's dead and will never return." If WB decides that there's more money in Joker being there than not, then Joker will be there.

It can just as easily work the other way, though. WB might realize that retconning the Arkham City ending would piss off a great percentage, perhaps even the majority, of the Arkham games' fanbase. I don't think it would be a good decision from a business standpoint but that's my opinion. The quote is important because it's a statement of someone who directly affects the content of the next game.

Other than that, I dunno, and don't really care. I wouldn't mind a cameo appearance, even if it's just a FEW pre-recorded scenes from before his death.

Neither would I, really, or as a flashback brought on by fear toxin. But physically resurrecting him or having him jump out and yell "Boo! I was faking the whole time!" like some people seem to want to have happen would be lame and would render the ending to Arkham City meaningless and hollow. Joker left an imprint on Batman that won't go away simply because he died. He could be "brought back" in a more figurative sense, and that would be more psychological and interesting than just simmering his body in a Lazarus Pit.

The Lego games prove that even dismemberment can be cute.
banzaiheil

Jun 20, 2012 8:52 pm GMT
Herrix posted...
It can just as easily work the other way, though. WB might realize that retconning the Arkham City ending would piss off a great percentage, perhaps even the majority, of the Arkham games' fanbase. I don't think it would be a good decision from a business standpoint but that's my opinion. The quote is important because it's a statement of someone who directly affects the content of the next game.

Sure, it could work that way, but I haven't seen too many publishers give a damn about what gamers want this gen. This example didn't bother me since I always buy "new," but WB sure jumped on board with the online pass thing. And even if they did listen to the fans, I think it's fair to say that there are more people that have been MAKING TOPICS about Joker coming back rather than hoping he's gone for good. Not saying they are the majority, but even if a vocal minority that's likely what is being heard at this point.
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RAMMSTEIN -Atlanta, GA 04/23/2012
Soooooooo good!
Herrix

Jun 20, 2012 9:11 pm GMT
The thing about the topics, there's no real reason for someone satisfied with the ending to create a "I hope Joker stays dead" topic because that person has no reason to assume he won't stay that way. Within other topics though, I've seen more people than not say that Joker's resurrection would cheapen the ending to City. Like you, I'm not saying they're in the majority because I really don't know, it's just based on what I've read personally.

The Lego games prove that even dismemberment can be cute.
BigJon1448

Jun 20, 2012 10:00 pm GMT
Herrix posted...
@BigJon1448

Who's getting mad? You're the one who started in with a dickish attitude telling people who didn't agree with you to "use your brains," and suddenly I'm the one out of line? Give me a break. "Just because [I] want Joker dead" is not why I think Joker is dead, as I very clearly showed. The developer said it directly. "The Joker's dead." He talks in another interview about killing the character off for reasons other than shock value. There's no room for interpretation there. He knows the fate of the game's characters better than both you and I. Argue with me all you want, but you're going to dispute the point against the developer of the series then you're going to lose.

I already commented on why I said "use your brains". I'm just saying that not everything is as it seems all the time and you'd think that some people would know that by now when dealing with the Joker.

I'll gladly eat my words if he doesn't show up in the next game (or not be revealed to be alive), but until then, I stick to my assertion. If you weren't offended, then you wouldn't have quoted my original post. So yes, you were upset.

Honestly I don't care if there are a million quotes of the dev saying "he's dead and will never return." If WB decides that there's more money in Joker being there than not, then Joker will be there. Other than that, I dunno, and don't really care. I wouldn't mind a cameo appearance, even if it's just a FEW pre-recorded scenes from before his death.

^^THAT'S what I mean. That's what I was trying to get across.

I don't think anyone's saying that the Joker being dead means he won't be back. But TC sorta specifically asked whether the Joker was dead in this game. And in my opinion he definitely is. Rocksteady seems to be in agreement as well. Now that in no ways means he won't be back. Alotta characters have truly and utterly dead only to come back to life via cloning, super healing, or just plain magic.

^^And that.
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Herrix

Jun 21, 2012 7:31 am GMT
BigJon1448 posted...

I already commented on why I said "use your brains".

No, actually you didn't.

If you weren't offended, then you wouldn't have quoted my original post. So yes, you were upset.

Look, don't try to psychoanalyze me and tell me what I feel. I know better than you whether or not some post offended me. You've also quoted me, so by your rationale you're also getting upset. It's just called "replying."

_Shuyin_ posted...

I thought it was pretty ballsy for them to kill off Joker in this game. Bringing him back to life would destroy the ending though.

Joker is amazing, but they don't need him for another amazing Arkham game. How about Scarecrow?

^This is all I'm saying. Joker could be "brought back" in a sense via flashbacks or Scarecrow hallucinations as I've said, but simply resurrecting him in a Lazarus pit or revealing he was faking his death would just be lame. Besides, the developer quote proves he's not just faking.

dargondarkfire posted...
i would prefer the joker to be dead. hes ok for a bit but he begins to get on your nerves after awhile.

^Even the TC prefers him to be dead, as do many other fans of the Arkham games. I'm a big Joker fan; he is my favorite supervillain because he can cause so much physical and psychological mayhem despite the lack of superpowers. This version would be diminished in my eyes if he were shown as unkillable because he'd be less human as a result. Many people feel the same way.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/981375-batman-arkham-city/62032576

If they were to bring Joker back, that would be the way to do it.

The Lego games prove that even dismemberment can be cute.
BigJon1448

Jun 21, 2012 9:20 am GMT
No, actually you didn't.

Yeah...I did. "All I'm saying is nothing is always as it seems." -_-

You've also quoted me, so by your rationale you're also getting upset. It's just called "replying."

Well, maybe I don't LIKE to offend people?

^This is all I'm saying. Joker could be "brought back" in a sense via flashbacks or Scarecrow hallucinations as I've said, but simply resurrecting him in a Lazarus pit or revealing he was faking his death would just be lame.

Well, I understood that (a little too late) when you responded to someone else by saying that bringing him back would be [a cop-out], but I didn't say you hated the character. I just said you wanted him to stay dead.

...For a perfectly VALID reason, of course.

I just don't care how they bring him back if they do. If it's anything ridiculous, it really won't affect me. When I played this game, Joker died and I felt that. So if they were to bring him back, I still have the memories of how I felt when he died, so it's okay. For some reason, it doesn't affect me like it does other people.
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Herrix

Jun 21, 2012 11:27 am GMT
BigJon1448 posted...
Yeah...I did. "All I'm saying is nothing is always as it seems." -_-

You didn't say that in reference to that line, though, thus you didn't clarify why you said it. "Use your brains" means that people aren't thinking. If you really didn't like to offend people you would have found a more constructive way to word that. Not that I was insulted, it's just that stuff like that leads to pointless bickering about off-topic matters.

Well, I understood that (a little too late) when you responded to someone else by saying that bringing him back would be [a cop-out], but I didn't say you hated the character. I just said you wanted him to stay dead.

I know you didn't, I just added that part for emphasis. It's because I'm a fan of the character (and Hamill's rendition of him) that I want him to stay dead. Not only does it add weight to the loss, It allows the writers to explore an aspect of his life that otherwise wouldn't be possible, his legacy after he is gone. I'd love to have him back as a character in challenge maps (playable or not), as a memory in the story, or both.

I just don't care how they bring him back if they do. If it's anything ridiculous, it really won't affect me. When I played this game, Joker died and I felt that. So if they were to bring him back, I still have the memories of how I felt when he died, so it's okay. For some reason, it doesn't affect me like it does other people.

Usually I'm more concerned with great gameplay than story, but in certain titles I feel a well-written story is essential. In any fighting game, for example, I don't care why I'm kicking the crap out of some guy as long as the asskicking process is fun. With certain adventure games like Arkham City or Oblivion, though, if I'm going to make such a time investment in a story I have to care about what I'm doing and why I should continue doing it. When playing as Batman, I need to feel like the character in the sense that my actions matter and allowing anyone to die, even the bad guy, has consequences.

The Lego games prove that even dismemberment can be cute.
Phad_Vickers

Jun 22, 2012 8:53 am GMT
Tactician_Lord posted...
With the amazing attention to detail they still have to explain why the cure changed hands. Before the explosion its in one of Batman`s hands...then everything blows up and Batman faints and the cure is in another hand. Some say it was just a continuity error...but this is the studio who even hid an image to a secret in a cutscene (look it out) so why would they not do it intentionally?

Necro reply, I know, but since this has been posted I've rewatched the scene.

It's very quick, and partly obscured by the explosion, but when Batman is knocked backwards, the cure actually flies upwards, out of his hand- and he catches it with his other hand, before passing out.

Rocksteady is pretty good with the details.
Hawker44

Jun 22, 2012 9:55 am GMT
banzaiheil posted...
Be prepared to be branded as a Joker fanboy for even considering that there is more than meets the eye to the ending.

How about I just point out how many times Joker's appeared to die in the Batman comics & manages to live.

Sure sure, this is a game, not a comic, but the source material is the comics, so you just know that Joker's not dead.
broly5

Jun 22, 2012 10:53 am GMT
Is the ending true? Yea I think it is. I think Joker is dead. And he will be dead until they decide he is not dead. It is up to the makers of the game. If they say later that he is not dead, then he is not dead. If they say he is still dead, then he is dead.

And the people who think bringing him back will somehow diminish AC, I don't understand these people.
Joker could come back with Superman's cape, Thor's hammer, walking on stilts, voiced by Keanu Reeves, and it would have NO effect on how awesome Batman: AC is.

I did like the theory about how he faked his death though. Seems possible.

Just my opinion...
Nasteeman

Jun 22, 2012 6:14 pm GMT
Hawker44 posted...
banzaiheil posted...
Be prepared to be branded as a Joker fanboy for even considering that there is more than meets the eye to the ending.

How about I just point out how many times Joker's appeared to die in the Batman comics & manages to live.

Sure sure, this is a game, not a comic, but the source material is the comics, so you just know that Joker's not dead.

Thiis what I've been saying. Even in his first appearance, he had stabbed himself in the chest and was supposed to have died, but they got such a stroing reaction from the fans they changed the ending so he survived. Just about every story after that for quite a few years had the Joker seemingly irrevocably dead, only to be brought backin a later story. It's a long standing tradition in comics to do that, and not just with the Joker. A running jokke in the comics industry for many years was "Nobody in the comics ever really permanently dies, except for Bucky Barnes" And I believe Marvel even brought him back a few years ago, didn't they? Suffice it to say, there's a ton of precedence in the comics for bringing back dead characters. I see no reason why they couldn't do it here, especially with something like the Lazarus Pit as a part of canon.
Sol4688

Jun 23, 2012 5:03 am GMT
Nasteeman posted...
Hawker44 posted...
banzaiheil posted...
Be prepared to be branded as a Joker fanboy for even considering that there is more than meets the eye to the ending.

How about I just point out how many times Joker's appeared to die in the Batman comics & manages to live.

Sure sure, this is a game, not a comic, but the source material is the comics, so you just know that Joker's not dead.

Thiis what I've been saying. Even in his first appearance, he had stabbed himself in the chest and was supposed to have died, but they got such a stroing reaction from the fans they changed the ending so he survived. Just about every story after that for quite a few years had the Joker seemingly irrevocably dead, only to be brought backin a later story. It's a long standing tradition in comics to do that, and not just with the Joker. A running jokke in the comics industry for many years was "Nobody in the comics ever really permanently dies, except for Bucky Barnes" And I believe Marvel even brought him back a few years ago, didn't they? Suffice it to say, there's a ton of precedence in the comics for bringing back dead characters. I see no reason why they couldn't do it here, especially with something like the Lazarus Pit as a part of canon.

The whole phrase is "No one in comics stays dead except Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."
And yes, all of them have come back in some way or another.

But it doesn't have to be this way with the games.
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aRealCoolGuy

Jun 23, 2012 8:34 am GMT
Sol4688 posted...
The whole phrase is "No one in comics stays dead except Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."
And yes, all of them have come back in some way or another.

Please explain "one way or another"... I know Marvel has had some $#!+ writing lately but if they resurrected Ben Parker in any capacity I will be super-p***ed and never touch another Marvel title again... Please tell me he's not a supervillain now or some bull$#!+ like that...
PSN: RealCoolGuy
"Sorry, I use humor to deflect my insecurities. Plus, I'm hilarious. So don't hate." ~ Deadpool, Suicide Kings #3
Nasteeman

Jun 23, 2012 1:54 pm GMT
The whole phrase is "No one in comics stays dead except Bucky, Jason Todd, and Uncle Ben."
And yes, all of them have come back in some way or another.

But it doesn't have to be this way with the games.

No, it doesn't have to be the same, but at the same time, as the game uses the comics as inspiratron, there's nothing wrong with using that kind of established precedence if the writers at RockSteady feel they need to, Like I said, it has already been established there are Lazarus pits in the game's universe, are there not? For no other reason than that, they could plausibly bring Joker back from the dead.
grand_kaizer

Jun 24, 2012 12:01 am GMT
Yeah, but it's a case of 'just because we can' isn't a good enough reason, and no reason exists that won't cheapen Arkham City's ending if used. It's the serious problem comic books have. There's no emotionally impact in killing anyone anymore. There's no gravity to pretty much any situation involving death because everyone always comes back.

Videogames, especially ones that are established as in their own separate universe, don't need to do be so useless.
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