General challenge discussion (formerly NCU United 1-6)

I believe the 0 star time for the 2 pantheon fight as snow is something like 1:45 -- way too long. Basically all the fights in this ch that you can successfully manipulate for 0 stars take way too long, except for the ghouls since you have the gladius and power wristband. I checked 'em all the other day. The choices are: get lucky finishing non-mandatory battles as fast as possible or save and reset mandatory fights. I'm beginning to think it probably isnt going to matter all that much timewise unless you reset a bunch until you get lucky.

If we're going to clear 7:21 IMO it will be almost entirely from eliminating the cp grind in ch 11 and the tortoise grind in ch 12. Those two combined we easily 30 min and I finished in 7:53. The only worry is do you start giving time back against late game bosses with lower stats. For proudclad 1 it's only about 20 sec but for pc2 and later it could be quite a bit more especially if you have to stagger one more time.

Also I need to get my cash flow worksheet out there and the cp usage as well. You have to be very careful with what nodes to get to make sure you get enough stats to progress quickly but not too many that you screw yourself out of essential abilities later on.

Good thought addict. I was aware of that trick but it is a lot more useful with army of one both bc AoO takes longer and bc AoO does more damage (but less chain gauge rise) I beat pc1 using cold blood twice in a row then used blitz while fang attacks. I had to do a bit of damage pre stagger to get it work but maybe you can save a few sec by blitzing and then cold blood a third time while fang attacks at the end of the stagger.

The biggest problem with pc2 that I predict is doing enough damage in the first stagger to get limiter release before the first aerial phase. The battle needs to go something like this:

Ground phase: stagger and do enough damage to get lim release
Aerial phase: stagger, do damage, while getting retaliatory-striked stagger again and do enough damage to win (possible with fang as sen and using renew to heal)

If you get to ground phase with limiters released you won't be able to stagger without a summon and then you won't be able to do enough damage. So it will be key to get limiters released AND two staggers in aerial phase to win quickly. In my 7:53 run I was strong enough to beat pc2 in two staggers (1 to get lim release and then his entire health bar the 2nd time, thanks to deprotect). I haven't tested whether the reduced strengh of the new plan still needs 3 staggers or not. It may not but 200k less cp is a lot of stats to give up. In my 7:53 fang had 1800 str and I estimate that will be more like 1300-1400. A big difference.

I've been focused on pc2 but dahaka will likely take 2 staggers vs 1 and Bart 2 will likely take 3 staggers vs 2 so thats a few extra minutes as well.

Below is a text version of the total cash flow for the game, point being to make sure that it is always > 0 especially when upgrades are needed. Apologies that this will be hard to read (its from an excel spreadsheet). The first number is the change for that line (sell an item, perform an upgrade, etc). The second number is the cumulative cash (+ for selling stuff, - for upgrades -- should always be > 0). The third # is when (or the earliest that) you should perform the indicated action. The text indicates what you are doing.

Comments invited. Note that it appears we run out of cash for the last two upgrades. Also note that there are no lines for selling chips from soldiers -- thus through the entire game (i.e. Ch 7, 9, and 12) you need to get the soldiers you fight on the way to drop 8 chips for the cash to balance at the end. When I went through the palamecia last time, I got 7 from the fights you have to do right before Barthandelus, so I don't think this is too unreasonable. Alternatively, you can skip the belladonna wand upgrade and not worry about any chips at all, but I think it helps healing and do damage (e.g. for dahaka), so I'm going to try for it.

Lastly, I'm going to get the black belt from the 2 soldiers in Ch 7. By my calculations, we'll actually need the cp to have enough for blitz and haste (64 from this fight), and I think the black belt will help in several fights (hecatoncheir, proudclads, Ch 13 dogs, etc). You'll note I plan to buy a 2nd and star both -- I suspect both of these upgrades are "optional" but very helpful for Proudclad 2, where our stats will be quite limited.

Changes Cumulative Chapter Notes

200 200 1 Start Ch 1
500 700 1 Credit Chip Solider Ch 1
5000 5700 4 Sell Airwing
-2000 3700 4 "Raise the roof" Upgrade +20 --> +60str (scrap, 3 FOC, 15 PE)
2500 6200 4 Sell Auric Armlet
1500 7700 6 Sell Metal Armband
6000 13700 6 Sell Fulmen / Riptide Rings
1500 15200 7 Sell Warding Talisman
5000 20200 7 Sell 2x Incentive Chip
8450 28650 7 Sell Vidofnir
-2880 25770 7 Before Ush. Subj. v1 Upgrade +20 --> +60mag (36 SB, 3 FOC)
1500 27270 8 Sell Star Pendant
7250 34520 8 Sell Spica Defenders
9900 44420 8 Sell Healer's Staff
-30600 13820 8 Before Midl. Reaper Upgrade +50 --> +120str (36 SB, 33 TJ)
7500 21320 9 Sell 3x Incentive Chip
10000 31320 9 Sell Lifesaber
8100 39420 9 Sell Pandoran Spear
-29760 9660 9 Before Kalav. Strkr. Upgrade +50 --> +120mag (36 SB, 32 CS)
3600 13260 9 Treasure in Palamecia
60000 73260 10 Sell Entite Ring
9000 82260 10 Sell Alicanto
15000 97260 10 Sell Tetradic Crown
12500 109760 10 Sell Feymark
10000 119760 11 Sell Hauteclaire
5000 124760 11 Sell 2x Saint's Amulet
-4240 120520 11 1st Floor Taejin Twr Upgrade Bladed Lance --> * (53 SB, 3 CO, 4 PC)
-30600 89920 11 1st Floor Taejin Twr Upgrade Rigels --> * (36 SB, 33 SC)
-43960 45960 11 1st Floor Taejin Twr Buy, upgrade +100 --> +180str (36 SB, 37 SC)
-22200 23760 11 1st Floor Taejin Twr Upgrade Belladonna Wand --> * (36 SB, 23 SC)
36000 59760 11 Sell 6x Moonblossom Seed
10600 70360 11 Sell Simurgh
10500 80860 11 Sell Unsetting Sun
-33960 46900 11 Apex Taejin Twr Upgrade +100 --> +180str (36 SB, 37 SC)
-15480 31420 11 Apex Taejin Twr Upgrade +60 --> +120str (cobaltite, 36 SB, 15 SC)
12500 43920 12 Start Ch 12 *, dismantle Goddess Favor (scrap, TT), Sell Perfume
-15480 28440 12 Start Ch 12 Upgrade +180 --> +250str (scarletite, 36 SB, 15 SC)
-9060 19380 12 Start Ch 12 Buy, upgrade Black Belt --> * (36 SB, 2 SC)
-4560 14820 12 Start Ch 12 Upgrade Black Belt --> * (36 SB, 2 SC)
5500 20320 12 Sell Rebel Heart
15500 35820 12 Sell Punisher
15000 50820 12 Treasure
11000 61820 12 Sell Antares Deluxes
5500 67320 12 Sell Mistelteinn
40000 107320 12 Sell Tetradic Tiara
8050 115370 12 Sell Gladius, Vega 42s, Power Circle, Binding Rod
5650 121020 12 Sell Silver, Tungsten, Gold Bangles
-69760 51260 12 Before Proudclad 2 Upgrade Rigels* --> Polaris Specials* (uranite, 36 SB, 16 PA, 36 SB, 45 PC)
-54120 -2860 12 Before Proudclad 2 Upgrade +150 --> +250str (36 SB, 61 SC)
-15480 -18340 12 Before Proudclad 2 Upgrade +180 --> +250str (scarletite, 36 SB, 15 SC)

Triple post -- in the wall o' text above there are several abbreviations. Translation:

FOC - fiber optic cable (two separate treasures with 3 each, Ch 4 and Ch 7)
PE - polymer emulsion
SB - sturdy bone
TJ - turbojet
CS - crankshaft
CO - crystal oscillator (you find a treasure in mah'habara with these)
PC - perfect conductor (a mix of treasure and purchased)
SC - superconductor
TT - tesla turbine (you get it from Anavatapta Warmech)
PA - particle accelerator (drops and found in treasure)

There's 17 total particle accelerators available, but I skip the one in the mah'habara because it takes a min or so to go get. If you choose to get it though, it will save you ~9000 in cash by reducing the # of perfect conductors needed to * the Polaris Specials. I leave it to the player to decide what is best.

One last bit -- I'm considering skipping the gold bangle. It takes a min+ to walk to get it and get back to where you need to go. It sells for decent gil at the end though, so it may be tough to do without. It may also be needed for hecatoncheir. We'll see when I finally get around to restarting this run (if I do).

@Tori -- yes I 5 starred m47 without an elixir. As you say it's not easy though. In the video that used to exist, the player got near maximum hits with obliterating breath by using a combination of left/right + x. If you use all left or all right + x it doesn't work. Sometimes bahamut will do like two hits.

Also you need to get snow a t3* power circle or sacrificial circle.

I got around the bahamut troubles by setting hope up with a t2* stagger lock weapon and RIC accessory. All you really need is one instant chain early in a stagger building phase and you should make it. It still took me 4 staggers to win whereas with a perfect obliterating breath 3 is possible. The problem with this setup is hopes healing will suck compared to his normal t3* hawkeye. You really also should try not to get the team dispelled during be first stagger with bahamut.

This one is 9/10 hard to get 5 stars on. Good luck.

Good catch re: fortisol on anima addict. Also, I don't think that the cash "problem" is really all that much of problem. Again you will get chips from soldiers and can reset fights in the palamecia until you get what you need without introducing extra saves. You can also skip upgrades -- both the belladonna wand and the last +180-->+250 str. Note that to actually do that final upgrade you'll need to get the adamanchelid to drop a scarletite which is a 5% chance. This means you either need to save after the proudclad 1 fight (which is otherwise unnecessary) or redo the proudclad fight and adamanchelid fight a bunch of times until the scarletite drops.

The main reason I included that last upgrade was to help bridge the difference between the bladed lance* (which will now be the end for fang) vs. the glaive* that I used for my 7:53 run. You need 266k to get the glaive (thus why you need to fight the toises) and all that cash nets you is a measly 170 extra strength. You can get 70 of that difference back by farming the adamanchelid so I put that in on a planning basis in cases it's needed. It may not be.

All of that is to say I agree with +1 fortisol to use on anima and I think the royal armlet, while tempting, is not necessary.

@addict - have not checked the dreadnought battle. However, I expect it won't pay out for two reasons. 1) the first version goes down well before the first stagger ends so you'd only be benefitting from improved speed which is mitigated by atb cancels 2) the second form you cannot use a sol for and that's what takes most of the time.

The healers staff battle I originally used a deceptisol on. However I don't think it's faster to farm one there. You'll be blitzing exclusively and the stagger gauge rise (and thus damage bonus) that you get is only like 130% vs 100% iirc. Haven't confirmed yet though. I can check tonight if you don't have a ch 8 save that you can modify appropriately to test yourself.

@Tori -- the first multicast after you stagger a rak is a combination dispel/debuff magic attack. It's not bc you summon it's bc you stagger. This is also why you frequently go from full buffs to none AND slow. Yeah these guys are bastards. The key is to get your attacks in and hit summon right as you see text for multicast so that the dispel will miss.

Also, you should absolutely summon the first stagger -- this is the only chance you have to save your shrouds. In a perfect world while building the first stagger only snow loses buffs (getting killed as sen) and hope/fang keep theirs. Then you need to time it so that you avoid getting dispelled and then still have haste on fang and hope to build the second stagger faster. Upon staggering the second time there's no way to save shrouds short of using an elixir and summoning again.

The above is a best case scenario. More often than not hope will get smoked while building the gauge the first time leaving only fang with shrouds. It's still possible to make the cut this way but know that it is possible to time things to your advantage.

@Tori-

You can find the target time calculation in the game mechanics FAQ. I have implemented this in an excel spreadsheet that I use to make things easier. Example:

fang: T3* taming pole, wurtzite* = 1011 str
snow: T3* power circle, +250 str = 1237 str
hope: T3* hawkeye, wurtzite* = 952 mag

1x Raktavitja, a level 12 enemy.

Target time to get 5 stars = 9min 41sec or faster

If you keep everything the same except swap hope's weapon above for a T2* alicanto (409 mag) the target time changes to:

11min 48sec

The key things in the calculation are the value of a character's highest stat (either str or mag), how many atb bars each character has, and the hp and level of the enemy or enemies. In this example, you dramatically reduce Hope's mag AND lower his ATB bars from 5 to 4 when swapping magic for the ability to generate RIC, thus the relatively huge change in target time.

I'm surprised you don't have to heal fang at all in any of your runs. When she's attacking during a stagger she should be taking fairly significant damage at some point. A T1* weapon will hardly be able to keep up. Also, taking the alicanto to T2* is no big deal, maybe 200k. I strongly suggest it. 11:48 is plenty of time to get 4 staggers in which should be all you need. One RIC instead of building the gauge from scratch will do the trick. On my winning 5 star run I actually got RIC twice in the battle.

healer's staff treasure, deceptisol = 12sec
healer's staff treasure, no deceptisol = 28sec

Not worth it.

Also, I tried checking dreadnought but remembered after winning that the first form doesn't even show a time. I'd have to get a stopwatch out, but I still think its probably a wash. Also, I've started shroud collecting in Ch 2 and I'm having none of addict's absurdly good luck. It takes 10 tries just to get shrouds from mandatory fights, and I only attempt those when I'm lucky enough to get a shroud to drop from a treasure fight or quick non-mandatory fight. Yuck.