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The signing of the White-Gold Concordat ...
The signing of the White-Gold Concordat makes NO sense.
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- Jul 13, 2012 3:45 am GMTI've heard this repeated throughout the game and whatnot, that the Aldmeri Dominion would crush the Empire in a prolonged war, that's why they had to propose the treaty.
Yet, the [weakened] Dominion hasn't crushed an Independent Hammerfell, and even though the Battle of the Red Ring was a pyrrhic victory for the empire with it losing two legions and more than half of the army, the Elven army led by Lord Naarifin was obliterated.
Honestly, the way it seems to me is that the Aldmeri Dominion is supremely overconfident, while the Empire has insecurity issues or something. It certainly seems like the Empire has a major inferiority complex at this point.
I get that the Empire is currently smaller than the Dominion, but the thing is that the Civil War would NEVER have happened if they hadn't signed the treaty. Yes, they MIGHT have lost, but they also might've won, and they would've had Skyrim's 100% support.
Okay, so the Empire lost half its army. But Lord Naarifin's ENTIRE army was destroyed. It doesn't matter if continuing the war would've resulted in the empire losing another half of its remainder--the Civil War in Skyrim pretty much did that.
TL;DR: The Empire would have won. They just didn't have any confidence in themselves. That is why I killed Titus Mede II. It's one thing when your opponent is arrogant. It's another when you actually buy into their arrogance and believe that they're superior to you when they are not.
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I am Thor Odinson of the Vikings, giant. I am not the god of reason and understanding. I am the god of Thunder and Lightning! - Jul 13, 2012 3:40 am GMTThat's what happened. The Dominion's tactics all throughout the war were based on puffing themselves up to strike fear in the hearts of their enemies.
It's why they zerged everyone everywhere. Why they never sued for peace or a truce. Why they hit high profile targets. Etc. They wanted the Empire to think they were so strong and tough so that the Empire would just roll over. So, when the Empire achieved their first major victory and enough to put themselves at the bargaining table, they thought they were lucky to catch a break. Truth is, the AD was probably hurting as bad as they were.
Also, Hammerfell didn't beat the entire Dominion. At that stage, most of the AD forces were on the Empire border trying to look tough to the Empire, like how most Empire Legions are in Cyrodiil. The force Hammerfell beat would've been a lot smaller than the Dominion itself.
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WW91 01000111 01101111 01110100 54 72 6f 6c 6c 65 64 2e - Jul 13, 2012 3:42 am GMTAt the very least, the stipulations of the treaty should have just been straight up cease fire. No concessions to either side.
It was more than just half of the legion that go destroyed... the battle of red ring all but decimated the legions' forces. And while they did manage to completely wipe out the forces that had invaded cyrodiil, they didn't have the forces left to sufficiently guard the coast from the superior thalmor navy as well as the border to valenwood and elseweyr.
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PSN: Davelicious GT: Davelicious46
NEW SETUP: http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Davelicious406/DSC02294.jpg - Jul 13, 2012 3:51 am GMTdavelicious posted...
At the very least, the stipulations of the treaty should have just been straight up cease fire. No concessions to either side.
It was more than just half of the legion that go destroyed... the battle of red ring all but decimated the legions' forces. And while they did manage to completely wipe out the forces that had invaded cyrodiil, they didn't have the forces left to sufficiently guard the coast from the superior thalmor navy as well as the border to valenwood and elseweyr.
They sure seem to have enough men to fight against Skyrim though.
I'll put it this way. If they hadn't abandoned Hammerfell and agreed to ban Talos worship (seriously wtf were they thinking at this point), the Nords and Redguards would be more than willing to sacrifice themselves to the last man to fight off the Elves. And THAT would have, in my opinion, been enough.
If Titus Mede II issued a call to the North and was all "Hey Nords, these Elven bastards want me to ban Talos worship. There's no way in Sovngarde that I'm going to do that, and I need y'all to help me send a message to these douchebags. Let's kill these sacrilegious scumbags," and told Hammerfell "They told me to give them half of your land. I thought you might have something to say about that," Hammerfell and Skyrim would have definitely come in force.
Nords that are part of the Empire would've already been part of it, and the Nords that didn't give two s***s about the Empire would've come for the heck of it because nobody takes Talos away.
In other words, it would've been a UNIFIED Skyrim, a UNIFIED Hammerfell, and whatever was left of Cyrodiil against a weakened and supremely overconfident Dominion.
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I am Thor Odinson of the Vikings, giant. I am not the god of reason and understanding. I am the god of Thunder and Lightning! - Jul 13, 2012 3:58 am GMTYeah the Empire I knew would never give quarter to the Thalmor, I still sided with them and everything but you're right. If the Redguard could drive them out of Hammerfell, then surely the Empire could have whooped the Thalmor's asses back to the Summerset Isles regardless of casualties.The Thalmor are police, not soldiers, they never should have gained an advantage over The Empires forces, I mean they're the conquorors of Tamriel FFS!
Even if the the death toll is catastrophic, surely it is better to fight and die on your feet than to live on your knees kissing the Thalmor's collective a**.
In all seriousness though, I hope we get to take the fight to those smug b******* in an upcoming add-on or in the next elder scrolls game at least.
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What do we do with The Drunken Peasant? What do we do with The Drunken Peasant? What do we do with The Drunken Peeaasant? Early in the mooorrrning? - Jul 13, 2012 4:02 am GMTAjd_King posted...
That's what happened. The Dominion's tactics all throughout the war were based on puffing themselves up to strike fear in the hearts of their enemies.
It's why they zerged everyone everywhere. Why they never sued for peace or a truce. Why they hit high profile targets. Etc. They wanted the Empire to think they were so strong and tough so that the Empire would just roll over. So, when the Empire achieved their first major victory and enough to put themselves at the bargaining table, they thought they were lucky to catch a break. Truth is, the AD was probably hurting as bad as they were.
Also, Hammerfell didn't beat the entire Dominion. At that stage, most of the AD forces were on the Empire border trying to look tough to the Empire, like how most Empire Legions are in Cyrodiil. The force Hammerfell beat would've been a lot smaller than the Dominion itself.
Exactly they were hurtin just as bad, so they used the WGC to weaken the empire. They knew the concordat would drive a wedge between the empire and it's Nord/Redguard citizens. This way they would be significantly weaker in the next great war.
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"I have never taken the high road. But I tell other people to, 'cause then there's more room for me on the low road" - Tom Haverford - Jul 13, 2012 4:07 am GMTF_Galikanokus posted...
Ajd_King posted...
That's what happened. The Dominion's tactics all throughout the war were based on puffing themselves up to strike fear in the hearts of their enemies.
It's why they zerged everyone everywhere. Why they never sued for peace or a truce. Why they hit high profile targets. Etc. They wanted the Empire to think they were so strong and tough so that the Empire would just roll over. So, when the Empire achieved their first major victory and enough to put themselves at the bargaining table, they thought they were lucky to catch a break. Truth is, the AD was probably hurting as bad as they were.
Also, Hammerfell didn't beat the entire Dominion. At that stage, most of the AD forces were on the Empire border trying to look tough to the Empire, like how most Empire Legions are in Cyrodiil. The force Hammerfell beat would've been a lot smaller than the Dominion itself.
Exactly they were hurtin just as bad, so they used the WGC to weaken the empire. They knew the concordat would drive a wedge between the empire and it's Nord/Redguard citizens. This way they would be significantly weaker in the next great war.
And they were right. However, by the very basis of the fact that they were right, shows that this current Emperor is NOT fit to rule. The Septim Empire would NEVER have given in. Ever.
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I am Thor Odinson of the Vikings, giant. I am not the god of reason and understanding. I am the god of Thunder and Lightning! - Jul 13, 2012 4:16 am GMTth3warr1or posted...
They sure seem to have enough men to fight against Skyrim though.
I'll put it this way. If they hadn't abandoned Hammerfell and agreed to ban Talos worship (seriously wtf were they thinking at this point), the Nords and Redguards would be more than willing to sacrifice themselves to the last man to fight off the Elves. And THAT would have, in my opinion, been enough.
If Titus Mede II issued a call to the North and was all "Hey Nords, these Elven bastards want me to ban Talos worship. There's no way in Sovngarde that I'm going to do that, and I need y'all to help me send a message to these douchebags. Let's kill these sacrilegious scumbags," and told Hammerfell "They told me to give them half of your land. I thought you might have something to say about that," Hammerfell and Skyrim would have definitely come in force.
Nords that are part of the Empire would've already been part of it, and the Nords that didn't give two s***s about the Empire would've come for the heck of it because nobody takes Talos away.
In other words, it would've been a UNIFIED Skyrim, a UNIFIED Hammerfell, and whatever was left of Cyrodiil against a weakened and supremely overconfident Dominion.
They have enough men to fight skyrim NOW... 25 years after the signing of the concordat. The whole reason the emperor opted for the treaty was so they could have time to regain their strength before having to fight the elves again.
Keep in mind too... most of the legion fighters in skyrim that are fighting the stormcloaks are local nords who want skyrim to remain a part of the empire.
You seem to be treating the situation as if skyrim wasn't already part of the war with the elves... The nords of skyrim were a significant part of the legion force at red ring... they shared in the decimation with the rest of empire. If the emperor had made a 'call to the north' to ask to keep fighting, all he would have gotten was local farmer replacements for the nords who were already in the legion that were killed... all the good nord fighters were already fighting the elves at red ring.
25 years later... it's easy to look and see that the empire and skyrim now has a fresh generation of soldiers ready to fight... but that's the point... that's why the treaty was signed to begin with. The hard part now is directing those soldiers to fight the right enemy rather than eachother.
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PSN: Davelicious GT: Davelicious46
NEW SETUP: http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Davelicious406/DSC02294.jpg - Jul 13, 2012 4:16 am GMTF_Galikanokus posted...
Exactly they were hurtin just as bad, so they used the WGC to weaken the empire. They knew the concordat would drive a wedge between the empire and it's Nord/Redguard citizens. This way they would be significantly weaker in the next great war.
Exactly, divide and conquor.
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What do we do with The Drunken Peasant? What do we do with The Drunken Peasant? What do we do with The Drunken Peeaasant? Early in the mooorrrning? - Jul 13, 2012 4:19 am GMTI think there's a few things to remember here.
First off, the empire IS slowly dying, and it's not just because the Thalmor is strong or something. The decline is internal. With the end of the Septim line they lost the strong leadership that had made them a force to be reckoned with.
So when you point out that they make bad decisions and didn't act as boldly and quickly as they should have, the answer is basically... yes, that's exactly the point. Titus Mede is no Septim.
I'm very curious where they're going to take the Empire's plotline down the line. Will a new empire rise? Will the dovahkiin establish a new royal family like the septims? Will the empire just disappear? (that seems unlikely, its pretty much the one through-line to their entire plot).
Also, from a military point of view I think the important thing to remember is that, if I'm remembering correctly, conquering the dominion was hard even for Talos himself, he used Numidium I believe. Add to that the fact that they would have to defend against Valenwood and Elseweyr and while they might have won, I think it's hardly a given.
Given some of the lore about how the Thalmor took over the Bosmer though, you'd think they could try harder to drive a wedge between the High and the Wood Elves.
Still, they certainly should have tried harder not to alienate the Redguards and the Nords, let alone trying harder to be there for the Dark Elves in their time of need. - Jul 13, 2012 4:31 am GMTdavelicious posted...
They have enough men to fight skyrim NOW... 25 years after the signing of the concordat. The whole reason the emperor opted for the treaty was so they could have time to regain their strength before having to fight the elves again.
Regardless though, I feel like the survivors of 3 provinces THEN, still outnumber the new generation of a single province.
Also, looking at the age of the people in the Civil War, and how much they talk about the Great War, I think they're the same generation.
Galmar Stone-fist looks at least 60. Ulfric is in his 50s. Same goes with Legate Rikke and General Tullius.
There are no fresh soldiers. Maybe a few, but the ones who are fighting now are the ones who are pissed (even on Imperial sides) about the treaty.
I mean, stopping Talos worship wasn't bad enough, they had to allow the Dominion free-travel throughout their provinces? That's like practically Trojan Horse. They couldn't get in by force, so you let them get in by politics. That's just stupidity.
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I am Thor Odinson of the Vikings, giant. I am not the god of reason and understanding. I am the god of Thunder and Lightning! - Jul 13, 2012 4:32 am GMTKaleRylan posted...
I'm very curious where they're going to take the Empire's plotline down the line. Will a new empire rise? Will the Dovahkiin establish a new royal family like the septims? Will the empire just disappear? (that seems unlikely, its pretty much the one through-line to their entire plot).
The part in bold would be SO badass. Seriously. I've said it before. I always thought the Champion of Cyrodiil should've become the next Emperor.
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I am Thor Odinson of the Vikings, giant. I am not the god of reason and understanding. I am the god of Thunder and Lightning! - Jul 13, 2012 4:44 am GMTThe whole Civil War in Skyrim could have been prevented had the Concordant not been signed. Ulfric would have had no grounds and very little support to strike against the Empire. Essentially the Empire is making the same mistake with Hammerfell, essentially abandoning them after they fought for them against the Dominion. The Nords just feel the same way.
Besides, the Empire never really stepped back to consider why the Elves would want to sign a peace treaty. If the AD really were so strong as they claimed, why didn't they instead call for surrender?
History shows what the AD tactics are. They are very patient and use subterfuge and espionage to advance their goals, as well as brute force. The worst wars ever fought are the ones that deal with religious persecution. The Empire needs Skyrim, but they'll never have complete fealty as long as Talos worship is outlawed. - Jul 13, 2012 4:46 am GMTth3warr1or posted...
Regardless though, I feel like the survivors of 3 provinces THEN, still outnumber the new generation of a single province.
Also, looking at the age of the people in the Civil War, and how much they talk about the Great War, I think they're the same generation.
Galmar Stone-fist looks at least 60. Ulfric is in his 50s. Same goes with Legate Rikke and General Tullius.
There are no fresh soldiers. Maybe a few, but the ones who are fighting now are the ones who are pissed (even on Imperial sides) about the treaty.
I mean, stopping Talos worship wasn't bad enough, they had to allow the Dominion free-travel throughout their provinces? That's like practically Trojan Horse. They couldn't get in by force, so you let them get in by politics. That's just stupidity.
A single province? The dominion includes both provinces of summerset and valenwood... and after the void nights ended, a resolution that the dominion convinced the kahjiit they were responsible for, the province of elseweyr is also in the dominion's pocket.
You also have to think about what kind of resources anyone would need to actually stamp out the dominion... how do you invade an island nation that has the most powerful navy in the world, by a large margin?
And yes, there are some war veterans from red ring still alive in skyrim... most of them are not directly fighting though. Ulfric obviously survived because he didn't fight at red ring... he was being held captive by the thalmor while they were attempting to manipulate him into being their agent (one could argue they succeeded given the fact that the stormcloak rebellion is serving the thalmor's purposes very well at the moment... even if ulfric is not a willing agent, he's still playing their hand for them).
The strong presence of war veterans in the game has the purpose of demonstrating to players that the war took place, there's a lot of bitterness surrounding it, and to show the hardship it caused. Since the game itself has to be an unevenly scaled representation of what skyrim really is from a lore perspective (there are WAY more than just the 200 or so NPC's from the game living in skyrim at the time from a lore perspective... you just can't represent actual scale (population, time passage, distance) in a game world of this scope).
The relative number of surviving veterans in the game to other soldiers is greatly exaggerated because it serve's bethesda's indirect storytelling style... it's not meant to portray that most of the soldiers in skyrim are survivors from the war...
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PSN: Davelicious GT: Davelicious46
NEW SETUP: http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee174/Davelicious406/DSC02294.jpg - Jul 13, 2012 4:47 am GMTth3warr1or posted...
I've heard this repeated throughout the game and whatnot, that the Aldmeri Dominion would crush the Empire in a prolonged war, that's why they had to propose the treaty.
Yet, the [weakened] Dominion hasn't crushed an Independent Hammerfell, and even though the Battle of the Red Ring was a pyrrhic victory for the empire with it losing two legions and more than half of the army, the Elven army led by Lord Naarifin was obliterated.
Honestly, the way it seems to me is that the Aldmeri Dominion is supremely overconfident, while the Empire has insecurity issues or something. It certainly seems like the Empire has a major inferiority complex at this point.
I get that the Empire is currently smaller than the Dominion, but the thing is that the Civil War would NEVER have happened if they hadn't signed the treaty. Yes, they MIGHT have lost, but they also might've won, and they would've had Skyrim's 100% support.
Okay, so the Empire lost half its army. But Lord Naarifin's ENTIRE army was destroyed. It doesn't matter if continuing the war would've resulted in the empire losing another half of its remainder--the Civil War in Skyrim pretty much did that.
TL;DR: The Empire would have won. They just didn't have any confidence in themselves. That is why I killed Titus Mede II. It's one thing when your opponent is arrogant. It's another when you actually buy into their arrogance and believe that they're superior to you when they are not.
That plus are the Thalmor really that stupid in believing that every Thalmor hates Talos? - Jul 13, 2012 4:55 am GMTHammerfell is mostly a wasteland. A comparable similar climate and geography is Afghanistan which is called the Empire graveyard. The area is also called the Empire graveyard. Just like you can't conclude that the Soviet Union wasnt militarily strong because they couldn't hold Afghanistan, the Dominion's withdrawal Hammerfell doesn't mean they're not strong either. A lot of it is just how hard it is to hold the area.
Secondly the entirety of the Great War was on Imperial lands. After the US Civil War the North flourished whereas the South was decimated. The Dominion's capacity to wage war is untouched. The Empire has had opposing armies go through their lands and even had their Capital decimated. Wars aren't just about throwing armies around. To wage a war you need money and raising money is harder if you infrastructure is wrecked.
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Now Playing:Oblivion/GoW(X360), Vagrant Story (PS) - Jul 13, 2012 4:59 am GMTI think The Stormcloak's point of view is... if your a friend of the Thalmor you aren't our friends.
- Jul 13, 2012 5:18 am GMTth3warr1or posted...
And they were right. However, by the very basis of the fact that they were right, shows that this current Emperor is NOT fit to rule. The Septim Empire would NEVER have given in. Ever.
Arguable. There were a lot of weak, foolish, corrupt and cowardly Septim Emperors. There were probably more dodgy ones than good ones. It's just that the playerbase only got exposed to Perfect McStar-Trek and his son. Plus, the Septims had a lot more to work with than the Medes.
Personally, I think the Mede Empire is better. They are facing challenges the Septim's didn't have to deal with, and they're doing it without super blessings; they're doing it with sheer badassery.
Plus, the original Titus Mede is the second best person in ES history. He started out as a criminal, and ended up uniting half of Tamriel under his rule.
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WW91 01000111 01101111 01110100 54 72 6f 6c 6c 65 64 2e - Jul 13, 2012 5:20 am GMTdavelicious posted...
A single province? The dominion includes both provinces of summerset and valenwood... and after the void nights ended, a resolution that the dominion convinced the kahjiit they were responsible for, the province of elseweyr is also in the dominion's pocket.
I'm not talking about the Dominion. I mean that all the Empire is now is literally a single province; Cyrodiil.
A weakened Skyrim/Hammerfell/Cyrodiil >>>> Cyrodiil by itself 25years later, is what I'm saying.
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I am Thor Odinson of the Vikings, giant. I am not the god of reason and understanding. I am the god of Thunder and Lightning! - Jul 13, 2012 5:21 am GMTOmni024 posted...
I think The Stormcloak's point of view is... if your a friend of the Thalmor you aren't our friends.
Which isn't wrong. If you're a friend or associate of Al-Qaeda or Taliban, I doubt you'll be welcome in the US.
Luminaire posted...The Dominion's capacity to wage war is untouched.
So then why did they sign the treaty? The Dominion is a LOT weaker than they'd have you believe.
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I am Thor Odinson of the Vikings, giant. I am not the god of reason and understanding. I am the god of Thunder and Lightning!
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The signing of the White-Gold Concordat ...
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
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- Publisher(s): Bethesda Softworks
- Developer(s): Bethesda Game Studios
- Genre: Role-Playing
- Release:
- Classification Board: MA
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- Game Universe:
- The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind (XBOX, PC),
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (PC, X360, MOBILE, PS3, PSP),
- The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine (PC, X360),
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- The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - Game of the Year Edition (X360, PC, PS3),
- BioShock & The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Bundle (PC, X360),
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