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28Nov 12

So, THIS argument has popped up again.... and again..... and again: Women are overly sexualised in games, Girl gamers are routinely abused online, The gaming industry is full of sexist pigs etc.

REALLY ?!

I'm tired of trying to post single comments in the thousands of articles relating to this, so I thought I'd put all my own thoughts in to one handy Blog for all, or nobody, to read.


Depiction & Over Sexualisation Of Women In Video Games

Yes, there is some mild sexualisation in games. I'd be lying if I said there wasn't any. The obvious ones like Dead Or Alive and Tomb Raider spring to mind first.

First off the "bouncy boobies" in DoA are just part of a game that is so ridiculously over-the-top, it's almost tongue-in-cheek, more than anything else. The women are scantily clad, the men are bulging brutes. It's all a bit silly, rather than titillating. Similar to Lollipop Chainsaw that was released earlier this year.

With Tomb Raider, yes, Lara Croft is nice to look at, with her athletic body, heaving bosom, THAT ass and posh English accent. But she's also, intelligent, strong, independent and kills a lot of stereotypical, dumb, male henchman. Facts that are largely overlooked, or smeared over just because she happens to be attractive and has big breasts. Not to mention that the main reason the Tomb Raider games (especially the earlier ones) have been so succesful is actually down to their outstanding 3d level design, clever puzzles & platforming. The novelty of Lara being hot wears off after about 2 minutes of playing the game. Yes, I had a little giggle the first time I saw the big boobies, but I didn't play the whole game with one hand. Which brings me to my main point with regards to the sexualisation of women in games.

From what I've read in the majority of Blogs, Forums, Comments etc protesting against the depiction of women in games, there are a few things that seem consistent in all of them:

Firstly: The people doing the complaining seem to think that all male gamers are horny, knuckle-dragging, slobbering, Neanderthals. I actually find THIS offensive. I have NEVER purchased a game thinking "There might be a hot chick in this". I buy games I think might be interesting & enjoyable for me to play, not because I want to drool all over my control pad at scantily-clad women. I think even the most seasoned pervert would struggle to be titillated by a video game, or would go out and buy a game just for that reason. Just because I'm a man, doesn't mean I constantly have naked ladies on the brain. I read the interview with Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency and it's pretty clear that her and many others like her presume that all male gamers are like this. We're not. I play games for fun, that is all.

Secondly: From what I've read, the depiction of women in games doesn't really seem to be an issue from a sex point of view, it seems to be more about VANITY. Many seem to think that just because a female game character is attractive, she's somehow less intelligent and is therefore a sex-object. I completely disagree with this. In my view, it is just down to pure vanity and nothing else. The majority of video games characters are much like the majority of movie characters: Everyone is fit and pretty. You don't see people writing angry Blogs about good looking men, or women, in movies creating overly sexualised characters, so why is it such a big deal when it comes to video games ? I don't truly have an answer to that one. I just think their is a small minority looking to create a major fuss over nothing. I don't think women are depicted any worse in games than they are on TV, or movies. Sure there are a few games that could be considered titillating, but it's the same as any other media, whether it be TV, Movies, Magazines etc. It's a very small percentage.

Lastly: There's a lot of rambling in these articles about equality and women in games being "The Damsel In Distress". Again, I completely disagree with this. Maybe 20 years ago when Mario had to rescue Daisy and Link had to rescue Zelda. We've come a LONG way since then. There are many strong female characters in games these days: Sarah Kerrigan, Alyx Vance, Samus Aran, Lara Croft, Cortana and yes even the bouncy babes from DoA: They may be sexy, but they fight and win against MEN. How much more equality to you want ???? Not to mention the fact that in most RPG's you can play as a female lead, most notably, in recent years, with FemShep in the Mass Effect Trilogy. Again, certain people are making a major fuss over nothing. It just goes back to the vanity argument: If a female game character is pretty, she must be stupid & helpless.


Girls Gamers & Online Abuse

I have quite a few girls on my Xbox Friends, who I play with fairly regularly and I've never once heard them get picked on just for being a girl. I have heard THEM taunt guys by saying: "Ha, you just got owned by a girl" and everyone laughs. From my own experiences online, I'd say it's one of the few mediums where people are judged on their ability rather than their gender. Also, I only really play with online friends, rather than going in to open games, because I can't be bothered with all the screaming & trash-talking. It doesn't bother me, it just gives me a headache. So, to any girl gamers who are apprehensive about playing online: Play a few games and you'll get friendly with people and eventually you'll play with friends most of the time. If you prefer to fly solo, you do so at your own risk. Just don't get upset at some name-calling. It happens to EVERYONE, not just girls. Remember, you can always block, or mute someone who just wont shut the hell up !


Sexism In The Industry

I obviously can't comment fully on the matter, as I don't work in the industry and am unaware of companies hiring poilicies. All I can say is, from what I see, there seems to be healthy amount of women working in the journalism side of the industry. Sure it's not 50/50, but that's down to video gaming being more of a male interest than a female. There's no denying that more men are in to games than women, especially the more hardcore element. I don't know the exact number, but I'd say it's about 80/20 in favour of men, who are in to gaming enough to pursue a career in the industry, whether it be in game journalism, or game development. As gaming is becoming a more mainstream hobby, I expect the number of women working in the industry will increase over time. However, I expect it will always be more of a male interest than a female one. Again, this is all just speculation on my part, as I have no idea when it comes to the hiring policies of game developers and game magazines etc.


I can see this debate raging on for a while yet, but that's all I have to say for now. Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about concerning the depiction of women in games. It's just like everything else: You can't please everyone.
I just hope that this vocal minority don't get their way, otherwise political-correctness will get so out of hand, it'll be like playing Pong all over again: Instead of characters we'll have genderless blocks that don't speak and have no personality. I'm all for equality, but that's a step too far !

Feel free to post a comment below, whether you agree, or disagree. I may reply to some of them.

Keep it civil.

Tiz

162 comments
nate1222
nate1222

People complain about how women are portrayed in games. But look at the male characters. They're often potrayed in this unrealistic, "male power fantasy" way that makes the audience appear juvenile.

 

Just putting these hulking, alpha male protagonists (Kratos, Gears of War, CoD...) in most games is kinda' insulting to the male audience. It's as if the devs/publishers are saying, "We know you're feeble and insecure. So come get your egocentric, power fantasy!" Being 36 years old, and comfortable with myself, I'm put off by alot of it.

CodingGenius
CodingGenius moderator moderator like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

I understand how articles about sexism in gaming and other forms of media can sometimes make people tired of hearing about it.  It doesn't change the fact that it exists, and that for some of us women, it's not acceptable.

 

The fact that men ogle women's breasts in real life, making many women uncomfortable,  is not acceptable.

 

The fact that many computing (and other STEM) programs harbor sexist attitudes, leading to fewer women remaining in them is not acceptable.

 

The fact that women are frequently harassed online simply for being female is not acceptable.

 

If you do not want to worry about these issues, fine, but don't pretend that the modern depiction of women is acceptable just because:

 

"That's the way it's always been."

"Things are a lot better than they used to be."

"Other groups have it the same/worse, so women shouldn't complain."

 

Perceptions of gender are constantly changing, and it opportunities and expectations have changed radically in a single generation in the US/Canada.  Don't think that this is the way it has always been or that it wasn't a fight to get this far.

WolfGrey
WolfGrey

 @CodingGenius And to be totally honest, i only look typically because i see movement.

 

Wear bra that keeps them still and i won't look because my eyes won't be drawn to it.In fact that is the major reason guys even look. Because they move. Our eyes catch the movement and we get curious and look.

 

Not something some of us can help really.

EarthGirl
EarthGirl

 @WolfGrey  @CodingGenius "we get curious and look."

Excuse me? You're wondering what we could possibly have there? A velociraptor? Maybe a life-size cutout of a young Harrison Ford? I'm pretty sure you must be at least somewhat familiar with female anatomy, even if you're not familiar with misogyny.

Get over yourself and stop blaming what women choose to wear.If you tell her to wear something that keeps her boobs from bouncing, some other guy's gonna tell her to wear something that does the complete opposite. There will be women on both sides of the argument also telling her what to do, thanks to internalized misogyny. It's a woman's right to wear what she wants, and she doesn't deserve to be leered at by anyone because of it.

It is not the place of some guy on the internet to teach women about sexism. You might not leer at women, you might not harrass women, you might actually be a decent guy in public. (Based on your comment, however, I rather doubt it.) But you can't assume that the way you behave is universal. Women speaking out about the oppression they've faced based on the fact that they are women is NOT oppression against you!

Unfortunately, playing the victim to invalidate the sexism women are faced with on a daily basis manages to earn you a good deal of sympathy from both sides of the equation.

Total_mischief
Total_mischief like.author.displayName 1 Like

@EarthGirl @WolfGrey @CodingGenius Bit of an old post, but I was linked to this blog and I have to reply to this ignorant comment. I'm not gonna bring up sexism because we're on the same side on this issue, but if you have the slightest clue of how the human eye work, you'd know that he's right. The eye is mainly attracted by light and movement. Bouncing bosom ? We'll look. Not out of sexual desire; we'd do the same if it was a ball of tumbling weed. There's a difference between looking and leering. Learn it.

isshiah
isshiah

 @EarthGirl  @WolfGrey  @CodingGenius  it is likely some women enjoyed being found attractive, or leered at, as you put it.it is quite a sweeping generalization to assume that every woman everywhere is always suffering under the boot heels of sexism. what you find sexist is based on perspective, also. having said that, i agree that it's not suitable for women to be seen as objects to looked at and taken care of, like in a 1940's adventure film.

davedrastic
davedrastic like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @WolfGrey  @CodingGenius If they're on show, they'll draw your attention. It doesn't make you a pervert so you just have to ignore these claims that it does. 

 

It's surprises me, nowadays, about how many women dress in overtly sexual ways. It's not only the young, but the middle aged too - those that really ought to know better with plunging neck-lines. 

 

novan_leon
novan_leon like.author.displayName 1 Like

Excellent commentary. Well-written and to-the-point. Good job.

blahblahblah999
blahblahblah999

I'm glad this is being heard.  Sexism is just a part of it all.  I just went on a slight rant in a blog about homophobia in gaming.  There's also racism, and pretty much any other thing that deviates from the mainstream.

 

Ultimately, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Which is bullcrap.  We all enjoy games, that is the main point.  Developers should stick to that and not be sidetracked by marketting and other crap to appeal to the majority, because that majority is always changing.

 

The emphasis should be on story-telling and options, because that is what people want.  They want to be immersed in a world, and gaming offers the chance for anyone to immerse themselves- when given the tools to create that.  Stick to that concept and you can create any game that can appeal to everyone.  This is one of the few forms of entertainment with that capacity.

davedrastic
davedrastic like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @blahblahblah999 Yep to me homophobia is a far more deserving topic of this kind of scrutiny. That is, if we're talking about offensive comments. That's the thing with this discussion topic, sexism, it's not at all clear what we're talking about. Offensive comments, job disrimination, sexual harrassment, sexual objectification. This blog focuses on sexual objectification but the discussion as a whole is all over the place. 

 

This blog is better written than some of the professional articles on the subject within this site. 

davedrastic
davedrastic like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

A few comments that I'll type as I read through your blog. 

 

In real life, boobs do bounce. And, in real life, men (and to a lesser extent women) do like to look at boobs. 

 

Yes, sexual objectification of women does occur in games, as it does in every other media. EVERY. OTHER. MEDIA. Can anyone think of a single form of media in which women aren't sexually objectified? I can't. 

 

Tomb Raider is an interesting example. From my perspective, Lara was portrayed as a girl in short (but not hot) pants and a tight fitting top showing off her large bust. Or huge bajoinkas, which everterminology you find more appealing. Now, the latest adaptations of Lara, in the upcoming game, she is still very much an attractive young lady, but she's not the over-sexualised boob focused entity that she was. From this it appears that the representation of women within games IS maturing. And it's fair to deduce that this is occurring because that is what the market wants. And the market is maturing, as is the industry. We're no longer 13 year old boys panting at every pair of boobs we see, real or otherwise, we're notw boys in our mid to late 30s panting at every pair of boobs we see, real or otherwise. 

 

Is it fair that womens boobs are focused on, but mens junk isn't? Probably not, but then that issue appears to be society wide - and not limited to games, or to gamers. 

 

I think you make a very good point in stating that you've never bought a game because you think there will be a sexy girl in it. Nor have I. Yet. That could change in the future with how amazing graphics will be. And if I do buy a game because of a sexy girl in it, is that any worse in going to see an Angelina Jolie movie because of the actress, or sitting through a Beyonce video because of the booty?

 

 

Sgthombre
Sgthombre

 @davedrastic So because sexual objectification exists elsewhere it's okay in video games?

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Sgthombre Did I say that? No. 

 

First off, it would depend on what you mean by okay. If you mean completely normal and within the values of the general society, then yes, it would be okay. 

 

If you mean okay in the sense that it doesn't insult  or offend anyone, then no, it would not be okay, but it would not in the least be alone in being a means that causes offense. Offense is caused to many of us in many ways. As such, it does lead to the question as to why the need for this particular discussion to be pointed at the game industry. Perhaps there is a particular and valid reason, if there is i've not heard it. 

samnator123
samnator123 like.author.displayName 1 Like

Thank you! I completely agree with this article and you have justified the argument exceedingly well! It

Klokateer
Klokateer like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Too many women claim to want equal treatment when they clearly want preferential treatment. They're all for more female heroes in games but when devs make female villains, they throw a fit and say the game 'promotes violence against women'. Thankfully, not all women are like that.

Mighty_Tyr
Mighty_Tyr like.author.displayName 1 Like

Right on the money sir.  There is often sexualization of women in games, but it's because sex sells.  Movies and television do the same thing.  Seriously, watch one of those "cool, hip" movies like The Fast and The Furious and see if you can find even one main character (male or female) who is unattractive and dresses modestly.  I must also point out that the most blatant example of nudity I have ever seen in a game involved a man, not a woman (GTA4: The Lost and Damned; full frontal nudity, dangly parts and hair and all).

Diablo-B
Diablo-B like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I dont agree with everything you said but you raised some very important points.  The one thing I want to add is that when you are in competition with someone and they are worried about losing it is common for then to say anything possible to insult you.  They are trying to get in your head, voice their frustrations, or piss you off.  Thats just the environment of anything competitive. They will look for any insult they can think of. The less they know about you the more generic the insult.  But if you are competing with someone and they can figure out your race, age, gender, physical features, weakness, etc, they will attack that.  Its not because you are a woman, its because they are afraid to get their ego hurt.

phixional_b3ar
phixional_b3ar like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

This whole article and 90% of the comments are embarrassing 'how dare people attack my male privilege and my right to objectify women'. Do you really feel attacked by articles pointing out the sexism in video games? I mean if so you've got very thin skin. Isn't it amazing that from your male perspective women are just kicking up a fuss over nothing. I think you should re-examine your attitudes to Anita Sarkeesian as well because it's funny that when a woman actually intelligently and reasonably explores representations of women in videogames and points out things that challange your perspective you all dismiss her as 'extreme' or 'ridiculous'.

 

As someone who has done academic work in this area I can assure you that there is nothing 'extreme' about Miss Sarkeesian's views at all. I mean seriously name me three different fighting game series in which women have not been overtly sexualised at some point. And you claim that the bouncing boobs are ok in Dead or Alive because it's a generally over the top series, but if all the males characters had bouncing and accurately rendered packages there would be an instant outcry from videogame fans about it being gross and stupid etc. But women just have to live with tits everywhere because for.

 

Oh and the wonderful 'stop complaining about sexist abuse online when you can just ignore it' I mean really? How backwards can you be?  All of you need to grow up because it's embarrassingly immature attitudes like this that make people think that games are for children or half wit teenagers and can't be enjoyed by adults.

WolfGrey
WolfGrey

 @phixional_b3ar Well to be far guys having bouncing packages would be freakin odd and disturbing.Women's breasts actually bounce at least ya know.

 

Btw i wouldn't give the creator of that twitter hashtag any credit.Do some research on her, she is a fraud and a con artist pretty much.

Madgnad
Madgnad like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @phixional_b3ar Dragonball Z Budokai, UFC Undisputed, Super Smash Bros... Do I win a prize?

rb2610
rb2610

 @phixional_b3ar I should point out that Tekken:DR on the PSP had not only 'jiggle-physics' on a few of the female characters, it also did the same to a few of the male character's genitals.Silly as the whole 'jiggle-physics' thing is in the first place, at least they applied it to both genders I guess xD

Klokateer
Klokateer

 @phixional_b3ar From your perspective, how is ignoring someone trying to piss you off less mature than throwing a fit about it? Most games (especially fighting games) are geared more towards a male audience. Most female gamers I know who dislike fighting games claim to only dislike them because they dislike physical violence. Several of them even like the bouncing titties, either because they thought it was funny or because they just like titties. The majority of male characters (especially in fighting games) are tall, tanned, buff and often shirtless throughout the entire game but short, pale, average muscled guys don't throw fits over it. Women have to live with tits everywhere anyway unless they want theirs cut off. You sound like the embarrassingly immature thin-skinned one here. 

Jonwh18
Jonwh18

LOL better then most of game-spots articles, bravo

holtrocks
holtrocks

Well said good sir. I have multiple girls on my friends list i say this just so you know not all guys online are douches granted 90% would be a good estimate but us 10% guys are there.

lupodirosso
lupodirosso like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 9 Like

I'm a female gamer and I don't mind the way females are portrayed in videogames. :-)

 

I think you're right on the mark sir. 

 

Plus, I like seeing intelligent, beautiful women kicking ass and taking names as much as I like seeing handsome, intelligent men doing such. We're all human, nothing wrong with a bit of eye candy.... >_> *cough*

 

And as far as multiplayer sexism goes: I only play with friends (most of them guys) and they treat me fairly. Quite the gentleme, they are. And we all get along great. Flowers and rainbows. And death.

 

And a little message to any girl gamers afraid to hop online and give it a go: IGNORE THE JERKS. Play only with people who treat you fairly. Leave the lobby if you are uncomfortable, but do not believe for a moment that all guys playing online are going to discriminate against you. There are so many great gamer guys out there, so go you! DO IT. :D

Gblazer01
Gblazer01 like.author.displayName 1 Like

Looks like I'll have to buy this chap a drink, well said! :)

Super_Panda
Super_Panda

Maybe it's because you're playing with friends, but I can say in most FPS games i've played, and a few strategy ones (only 2 i really play online), any player that managed to get identified/revealed as a girl got harassed and insulted. I'm not talking about the usual insults. I get those all the time. I mean full on harassment. If anything, I feel that playing with friends does reduce this, but even the girls I play with it admit that this is the case. Yes they can mute and report etc etc, I'm just stating that from my experience, it's more prevalent than you think. Then again, you and I just have 2 different experiences. Kinda why this is a debate, some people see it, others don't.

Drilbit777
Drilbit777

Very good blog. You make a lot of strong points and I even learned a few things from it.

sideshowboots
sideshowboots like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

what the hell is this, an intelligent argument based on reason and logic, you have no place on gamespot(or the internet for that matter)

all kidding aside great article

Warpspawn
Warpspawn

I think there is a fair amount of sexism in games, but only isolated to a few games I can think of.  So why should anyone be saying the games industry and the games they make are sexist, why point the figure at the whole industry, this I can't agree on. Its straight up character assassination and another attack on men.

 

Sex has been used to sell stuff for a very long time, but you know what I think the product is misrepresenting itself, because the game contains no sex! so why even bother. So some examples of sexism. Prince of Persia: Warrior Within, I thought the female antagonist at the beginning had this aura of cheap adolescent sex, actually made me disappointed in the game as a I preferred the original more as it was more about gameplay and less about action and violence. Golden Axe beast rider, the game featured Tyris Flare only, so this is sexist right? I wanted to play as the dwarf and the barbarian but could not. The game sold poorly. So a sexy female character didn't sell the game well enough!

I used to like Kerrigan in Starcraft , but dislike her in starcraft 2, I also hate her action figure. Maybe a change in her image, and some sexiness ruined her character for me.

 

Also Dead or Alive 5 ? having all those character with big boobs is fan service for the male audience, I guess this is ok.  Its a fighting game, characters are meant to stand out. Still I wonder maybe some variety is in order, so the game is remembered for other aspects as well, not just females with big boobs . I'm sure it does.

 

There are plenty of female characters which are outstanding and my favorites, Alyx Vance from Half life 2, Cate Archer from no one lives forever, Viktoria from the thief series, Jade from Beyond good and evil.

Thomas5443
Thomas5443

good humor, good point, good blog

spawnholio
spawnholio

I have to agree with this entire blog.

 

May I just add something I think is extremely relative. You mentioned an interview with Anita Sarkeesian of Feminist Frequency. To me, interviewing a person such as Anita whose opinion on this topic is so extreme seems pointless to me. It's like reporting on gun control and interviewing a victim of gun crime and a hunter, you end up only hearing the extreme ends of the argument. I don't find this helpful or informative. I would much rather hear more from the average gamer/joe public on these issues. Sure the extreme opinions are also relative, but a lot less so as these people are far less likely to be objective.

 

Well written article mate. Hopefully we can hear a few more opinions on the matter on both sides of the issue from intelligent people like yourself.

tizmond
tizmond

 @spawnholio  Yeah, that was the point I was trying to make regarding Anita Sarkeesian: Her views are extremely one-sided. At the other end of the scale, it would be like interviewing Hugh Hefner, or Larry Flynt with their views on sexism. Like you said, it would be neither helpful, or informative. Anyway, thanks for the support & comment.

Metroididiot
Metroididiot like.author.displayName 1 Like

This encapsulates everything I've always thought about this subject. It's such an obnoxiously over-hyped "issue" that I'm sick of hearing. If everyone could just be redirected to this article when the issue rises it would be perfect!

toshineon
toshineon

You make alot of sense, and this was a great read. I completely agree with you. Sadly, I happen to live in Sweden, where this debate has gone so far that certain people want to completely remove ALL gender differences (that aren't natural... for now). Actually, let me rephrase that, where I live, many companies are FORCED to employ a certain percentage of women and men, disregarding potential employees that might fit the job great because they happen to be the "wrong" gender. God, Sweden sucks, but enough about that. I'm glad to see someone raising valid points and not speaking seemingly out of blind rage.

bodeeremita
bodeeremita like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

All this fuss about sexism seems to be started by people who have a lot of free time to think about bullshit.

justcool2
justcool2

I like your point of Tomb Raider killing stereotypically dumb, MALE, henchmen of an evil baddie.  The whiners always appear to conveniently over-look that point, don't they?  And besides, the Tomb Raider team uses her female.... um, attributes..... to their advantage.  Let me explain, for the first Tomb Raider, how many men would have played it if it weren't for Miss Croft's attributes?  A lot less than those who did! This allows them to make more money (although you probably don't need to be told that).  

 

I also agree with you on the fact that the vast majority of male gamers do not buy games to simply "drool over their control-pads".  I am male, and I don't buy games because it has a picture of a suggestive-looking woman on the front cover.  I buy it because I think that it's going to be an enjoyable experience that is worth my money.  A hot chick is just an added bonus, not a main selling point (or, at least, it shouldn't be). 

 

Also, women in modern-day games ARE usually the damsels in distress, granted.  A prime example of this is in MW3, when the Russian President's daughter is hiding from Makarov's forces in Berlin, Germany. THIS IS NOT SEXISM, IT'S REALISM (at least, on-the-whole it is)!  Most women would not be able to beat up or outrun most men.  Obviously, there are a few exceptions (e.g. a female boxer/bodybuilder would easily beat up an ordinary, 'Average Joe' of a man).

 

Overall, then, I agree with you! :)

Renoo27
Renoo27 like.author.displayName 1 Like

Dude, you're my freaking HERO! This is pretty much everything I've been thinking since this sexism debate started. Bravo. 

ermhm
ermhm like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Ah, completely missing the point. Nobody presumes all male gamers are like this. If you are feeling secure about your personal views and simply like to enjoy a mindless fun game once in a while (like most of us do), no need to feel attacked. But let the discussion go on. We gain nothing by smothering it, but we lose a lot. Vocal minority only seems vocal. Of course we don't need censorship (a different kind, but still a censorship), but we do need more variety. More thought put into constructing meaningful stuff. Actually, and for some reason this thought is hard to digest for many - brainless games and meaningful games can coexist. Just don't forget you are a part of the privileged. http://kotaku.com/5963528/heres-a-devastating-account-of-the-crap-women-in-the-games-business-have-to-deal-with-in-2012 

Raphy_Turtle
Raphy_Turtle

 @ermhm I don't understand how he is missing the point? His observations are actually completely objective and unbiased. Most arguments on this debate are usually highly polarized. 

Raphy_Turtle
Raphy_Turtle

This argument is polarized and misdirected in the first place because this is simply not a field that suffers from sexism anymore (and when it did, nobody but men played or worked in the industry so it was a non issue.) Tizmond states all the facts well. Sexualized characters are even for both genders in mainstream media entertainment today, and games where female features are hugely exaggerated, are games not meant to be taken seriously (which developers tend to make obvious). Online bashing against women is a case of an exception, not the rule; Where we handpick a few cases of gender specific insults, utterly ignoring the overwhelming amount of other cases of bashing that weren't specific to women. As for jobs in the industry, you can't blame a gaming company of any kind to hire a majority of men if the majority of the applicants are male. It is in fact unfair to men if bureaucracy forces managers to hire women over more talented men to satisfy quotas. Think of it this way: There's 10 new positions at Gamespot and they get 100 applicants (90 men - 10 women). If they have to hire an equal number of each, then the chances of a woman to be picked is 5/10 while a man only has 5/90 chances of being picked...Do your own analysis. Gaming is a non issue.

Raphy_Turtle
Raphy_Turtle

 @ermhm I think you just stated the crucial statement about all this. ''It's not a source of sexism, but a casualty.'' Yes, just in every male dominated environment, there will be various forms of sexism ranging from harassement to not being taken as seriously. Though this isn't something a campaign specific to gaming will solve, this is workplace specific. I work in banking of all places which is quite male dominant also, the issues are the same. My brother works in gaming at Ubisoft. To solve these issues, the only thing that can be done efficiently is to have management put their foot down and make it clear treating women unfairly won't be tolerated. I think much of this falls into the category of things people say between friends behind closed doors. There will still be racism, sexism and any kind of discriminating comment being made between friends with a beer that won't ever be said to hurt someone. You will never get rid of the latter. This issue stems from the environment being more male than female, which would change if more women got into the industry. Agreed many games are still about male interests like war and cars, sports...but we are getting more and more smart games which attract both sexes, so we are in the right direction. The rest is about human behaviour which can be put in line at best. As for bashing, I'm judging from the thousands of insults I hear on xbox live game after game, almost all of which are just boys insulting boys, seldom I've heard bashing on women. Where we hear it is in comments sections of game interviews from female interviewers. Comments I made such a point in a previous discussion, are saturated. 90% of people who comment, do so to complain, I would assume of those who do, it is an even smaller but louder percentage of immature teenagers (most of the time) who write insulting crap to women.

ermhm
ermhm like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Raphy_Turtle I mean, I understand your point. Your example of Gamespot applicants is valid when out of context like this. And of course I agree men in games are portrayed ridiculously too - that's why, when discussing these issues, I always try to point out the bigger issue (which encompasses sexism) of how human relationships in general are dealt with. Also, game characters are one thing, but female developers are another. Do you work in the gaming industry? If yes, I'm really happy things are not as bad as I thought. If not, did you check the link I gave there? It actually shows gaming, or gaming culture (players, developers, everything in between), is not a non issue. It's not the source of sexism, but it's definitely a casualty. Gaming culture is most certainly part of the men/women & powerful/powerless dynamics which govern so much of our world - how can it not be? And why are you so certain online bashing against women is a case of an exception? There were more than few women posting on Gamespot stating the opposite - and I'm pretty sure none of them wrote about it just to get the attention :P

Slashless
Slashless

What an excellent blog, truly a fascinating read after that horribly written one Gamespot published Wednesday.

I'd just like to point out that there's a reason women and men aren't fat deformed trannies (inb4 tumblr) in the vidya, and that's because the majority men AND women don't want to sit and play a game where the character looks like the demon offspring of Gabe Newall and Hamburger Hepler(Funny how only one of those remarks is considered sexist). Games are fantasies, they're meant to be over the top, ridiculous, unbelievable. If I'm going to invest time in a game then at least make the thing I'll be staring at for hours visually pleasing.

The whole "the gamer community is sexist" is  a narrow-minded view at what the gaming community is. When anonymity is a factor people tend to say and do things they wouldn't in real life. The N word is shouted hundreds of times, black people call whites crackers, females get lampooned, it's a very hateful place for everyone, not just women.

And in regards to employment, that whole Twitter thing was absolutely nonsense, we had 0 verification if those people were telling the truth, and it's not if men aren't turned down in droves. The vidya industry is hard to break in to, and we shouldn't hire more women to hire more women. That's stupid. We should hire more TALENT, that's how the industry will get better. Not  by 50/50ing the gender role in it. It's not like talent is exclusive to any gender when it comes to the VG industry, and people like Hepler, Every GS writer that isn't Van Ord, the entire ME staff, and Cliffy B prove that the same is true in regards to those that have a lack of talent.

In regards to female characters getting better roles, I agree, that'd be lovely. But let's face it, seldom do we get a well-rounded character in a game. For every over sexuallized bimbo there's your Gears of Bore "Me have muscle!" character. For every damsel in distress you have male red shirts. And for every Alyx Vance you have a Leon Kennedy (re6 doesn't exist. Don't know what you're talking about.)

Again, we don't need more well rounded female characters. We just need more well rounded characters.

Once again, Excellent blog man, Carolyn, if you're reading, please take some notes. You're in dire need of an improvement in your writing abilities.

 

baxwam
baxwam like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

The reason I hate almost all articles about sexism in gaming news site, its not the I do not agree with them, its that they point their finger at all of us. That alone will get a lot of people really angry.

baxwam
baxwam like.author.displayName 1 Like

Btw good read 

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